16. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. Can you repeat the question real quick? My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? Yeah, sounds good. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Sure. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. Do it right now. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. Sep 29, 2021. Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. No, I dont think you are following my point. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Sure. Why would that be the case? For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. I think it provides strong evidence for it. I dont know how you would feel. like conceived, why would Joseph and their kinsfolk who knew her think that her pregnancy was a result of adultery? Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. On March 5, 2008 Christie retired from professional football. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. No, thats not the case. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. Yeah, no, no, no. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? I didnt talk about sister-in-law. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Thats just being read into the text. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. All right. Do you still have it? Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. I think a lot of people have this question, both Catholics and Protestants. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. (Horn V. Christie). So my point here is clear. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. And itll be really quick. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. 878 talking about this. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. An interview with Steve Baughman. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. This next question comes from [Mcart 01:28:41] 1977. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. So our listeners can go there to read that. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Do you? Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. All right. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. There is no exception there. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. Thats kind of hard. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? This means that there was no single, closed Hebrew canon during the time of Christ, and some Jews considered the deuterocanonical books to be Scripture. 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